Starter of this subject: JB
Last post in this subject: 3/24/2002
Messages in this subject: 15
| JB | 3/24/2002 15 replies |
| I've noticed lately that when listening to old radio dramas that they are all CBS or Mutual productions, especially the mystery-suspense-horror shows. Leaving aside soaps for the time being, it seems that NBC wasn't as active in drama as the other networks, or is it simply the shows I've been listening to? |
| Elizabeth McLeod | 3/25/2002 14 replies |
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There were quite a number of mystery-horror genre programs on NBC during the early thirties. The big mystery-drama fad of 1932-33 was dominated by NBC programs -- the Richard Gordon Sherlock Holmes series, Eno Crime Clues, Charlie Chan, Fu Manchu, etc. However, this fad burned out by 1934, to be replaced by "police dramas" in the 20 Thousand Years In Sing Sing/Gang Busters manner. NBC had its share of these as well. NBC even participated in the experimental drama movement of the late thirties with the original Lights Out and Arch Oboler's Plays.
When the second mystery-horror fad hit in the mid-forties, most of these programs ended up on CBS and Mutual largely because of money issues. Mystery shows were much cheaper to produce than comedy-variety programs, as a rule, and tended to appeal to lower-budget sponsors. These sponsors, in turn, gravitated to CBS and Mutual because these networks generally offered lower rates or better time slots. In addition, these programs were very efficient ways to use up unsold time -- a sustaining mystery show like "The Mysterious Traveler" could be produced using staff talent for little money -- and this was especially useful to Mutual, which was always a poor fourth in time sales. NBC's real contribution to drama was always more in the realm of Serious Drama. Programs like "Radio Guild Dramas," "Pulitzer Prize Plays," "Great Plays," and others in that vein presented some extremely heavy dramatic material during the thirties, usually built around major theatrical works. For example, NBC presented a whole season of Eugene O'Neill plays over the summer of 1938 -- some of the most adult drama ever broadcast on radio. |
| Jim Widner | 3/25/2002 13 replies |
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Elizabeth you mention Fu Manchu as being an NBC radio program. My understanding was that other than those episodes that were part of The Collier Hour (three episodes - 1929, 1930 and 1931), the first true iteration of the series was on CBS from 1932 through 1933. The next was called The Shadow of Fu Manchu which was syndicated (1939).
When were these NBC versions? |
| Elizabeth McLeod | 3/25/2002 12 replies |
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My error -- I was thinking of the 1929-31 Collier's Hour series, not the 1932-33 Campana/CBS series.
There were three 12-episode Fu Manchu serials on the Collier's Hour program, one each year in 1929, 1930, and 1931, coinciding with the publication of the stories in "Collier's Weekly" magazine. Each episode ran for about fifteen minutes, or about one-fourth of each full hour program. The first Fu Manchu serial on the Collier's Hour was on the air around the same time as another early NBC mystery program, "Mystery House," and these were probably the earliest network excursions into the mystery/suspense field. I should also clarify that the Charlie Chan series I mentioned was under the banner of the Esso Five Star Theatre, and has no relation to the syndicated Atlas Radio Productions serial of 1936-37. |
| JB | 3/25/2002 11 replies |
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I thank you both very much. The NBC emphasis on heavier kinds of drama seems consistent with the television network of the fifties and sixties, which was more anthology-driven than the other networks, and stayed loyal to the anthology concept (which I love) through the mid-sixties. This in turn raises the issue for me of why CBS has always been called "the Tiffany network". I'm scarcely a scholar of these things but I grew up thinking of NBC as the class act of the three networks, in terms of television anyway. They ran many of my favorite shows, and in certain areas (such as westerns) seemed to favor quality over quantity. And they were innovators in comedy, from Your Show Of Shows through Laugh-In and Saturday Night Live. Their Today and Tonight shows dominated their time slots for better than two decades before they were seriously challenged. My sense is that CBS garnered the Tiffany image as much for its news division as anything else.
I can remember a farewell interview with David Brinkley around the time he retired from This Week, and he was asked about his early years in radio and on NBC in particular, and about Ed Murrow; and he gave what I thought was a funny and typically droll Brinkley answer, which is that he felt NBC's news was every good as what CBS did, and that he never "got" the thing about Murrow,--a nice man, but he didn't walk on water. |
| Michael J. Hayde | 3/25/2002 10 replies |
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Part of CBS's "Tiffany" image, at least as far as radio is concerned, is that they had a nasty habit of luring away NBC's biggest stars by opening their wallets. Amos 'n' Andy, Burns and Allen, Bergen and McCarthy, Ozzie and Harriet, Benny, Crosby... the list goes on and on.
Television was another matter; what put CBS on the map in that medium were their two redheads: Godfrey and Lucy. I was surprised to find, when looking at the Nielsen Top Ten for a few random weeks between 1953-54, that "Lucy" is number one, "Godfrey's Talent Scouts" and "Jackie Gleason" can be found somewhere between 3 and 7, and EVERY other show on the list is from NBC. I confess, I'm also puzzled by the "canonization" of Murrow. He certainly wasn't the only network journalist with scruples, although he was fortunate enough to have someone like Fred Friendly in his corner. Yes, "See it Now" was an important show, and I'll not quibble over the influence of the McCarthy segment and "Harvest of Shame," but Murrow was best known for "Person-to-Person," just as Barbara Walters is thought of today for her celebrity interviews as opposed to her "20-20" journalism. Michael |
| JB | 3/25/2002 1 replies |
| Yes, I remember reading about that talent "raid" somewhere. Wasn't Burns & Allen on NBC television, though, and Ozzie and Harriet on ABC? There's a Nielsen website out there that lists all the top twenty shows on television from 1950 on, and NBC largely dominates the first half of the decade, with CBS pulling ahead at the mid-point. The rise of CBS was sufficiently dramatic for them to have for at least one year all top ten rated shows, and on another nine out of ten. Between the sitcoms, some popular westerns, Perry Mason and Hitchcock, they were a powerhouse, and retained their dominance for two solid decades. Curious that they ceded the mornings and late nights to NBC, but I guess when you're numero uno you don't have to think about such things. Thanks for your response, btw. |
| Michael J. Hayde | 3/25/2002 0 replies |
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The Burns and Allen Show was on CBS-TV; in fact the network scheduled reruns during the 1958-59 season as George Burns began his solo series (with the same supporting cast) on NBC.
Ozzie and Harriet moved from NBC to CBS radio during the spring of 1949 (they kept the same day/time slot, which NBC gave to Martin & Lewis). Why the TV version wound up on ABC is a good question for which I don't (yet) have an answer. Maybe someone else will. Michael |
| Jim Widner | 3/28/2002 7 replies |
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Michael, I sort of have to disagree with you on your Murrow comments. I think most remember Murrow for "Person to Person" because those left to remember him are from that generation. But I think if you look at Murrow historically, you will find two things pop up the most: the McCarthy hearing rebuttal and his radio work as the "creator" (for lack of a better word) of the Murrow Boys.
Murrow gets the press he has gotten also because I think the PR on him is stronger. By this I mean there is/was the group of reporters who followed him like a cult leader. There is the CBS PR machine which includes the likes of Cronkite and Rather today, Murrow had a strong commanding voice which rose him above many other reporters, and the British PR machine because I think for many of them, he was the penultimate American radio reporter of the war. At the same time, one cannot forget that Murrow was eloquent. This is not to say there aren't others who were too (my web site pays honor to many of them), but reports such as his "Orchestrated Hell" piece, and his Buchenwald piece are all excellent commentary. I think there were much better "reporters" than Murrow, but his legacy, to me, is his commentary skills. |
| Michael J. Hayde | 3/28/2002 6 replies |
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Jim, I think you hit the nail on the head. But I also think Murrow's reputation is 50% what the man actually did and 50% the CBS PR machine. I'm sure the other networks were doing great things in journalism as well. Yet nobody at NBC tries to claim that Brokaw is a "child" of Swayze's. At CBS, *everybody's* a Murrow descendent! Yet, he was never thought of that way *at the time* - only since his passing.
I recognize Murrow's contributions vis a vis "This is London" and the McCarthy broadcast and "Harvest of Shame," and all. I also recognize that Huntley-Brinkley were making great strides for TV at NBC, and were more popular than Cronkite for a time. Yet posterity has diluted their work down to a catch-phrase, while Murrow and Cronkite are deified, thanks to CBS's incessant PR. Michael |
| JB | 3/28/2002 4 replies |
| I'm inclined to agree, and it should be added that CBS defined its news division more sharply than the other networks, and was in its way the NPR of OTR in this respect. And Murrow did become a bona fide superstar during the Blitz in 1940-41, and not just in America. He was probably the first radio newsperson to gain the kind of respect and recognition previously reserved for "print" people, a great leap forward for radio news, and not just for CBS. And Murrow was never melodramatic. There was a gravitas to him. |
| Elizabeth McLeod | 3/28/2002 3 replies |
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Personally, I've always found Murrow just a bit *too* melodramatic -- and I believe he was *consciously* so. He had had training as an actor during his college days, and he certainly was working to milk the emotions of his listeners as much as he was trying to inform them. Someone like Raymond Swing easily equals -- or exceeds, in my judgement -- Murrow's ability as a reporter and commentator, but Swing never had the Voice (or, later The Dark Brooding Look Of One Who Knows How Important He Is) to go with it. If Ed Murrow had Raymond Swing's voice, no one would remember him today.
That's the unfortunate side of Murrow's legacy: an approach to journalism where "just the facts" isn't enough -- you've got to make them "feel" the story as well, and you've got to have a "style" while doing it. I prefer to decide for myself what I want to feel on any given subject -- and I very much resent when a reporter tries to *sell* me the story. For that reason I must confess to finding Murrow and his modern-day disciples a bit pretentious. If I want to be emotionally manipulated, I'll read a book or watch a movie -- or listen to a radio drama. But keep it out of the news, please. So far as radio reporters who worked to gain the respect given the print media, I'd put Fulton Lewis Jr ahead of Murrow -- not so much for his on air work (although I think he's very underrated as both a writer and a speaker -- perhaps because his politics are unfashionable today) but because of his relentless behind-the-scenes efforts to give radio journalists their due. It was Lewis who put up a constant struggle in the late thirties to earn radio correspondents equal privileges as part of the Washington press corps -- and regardless of his politics, his contributions are too often forgotten. |
| JB | 3/29/2002 0 replies |
| Murrow seems to me more dramatic than melodramatic. I was thinking of him in relation to those "voice of doom" radio and newsreel guys, who came off like God himself on a very bad day. Murrow wasn't entirely free from that, but he struck me as more prone to using his dramatic skills, such as they were, in a good (i.e. journalistic) way, rather than purely for effect. I agree that he overdid it at times, especially on television. His commentary on Joe McCarthy, with its Shakespearean quotation ("it's not in the star but in ourselves", or however it goes, from Julius Caesar)makes me uncomfortable today, seeming too well-calculated and sanctimonious, as bad in its way as McCarthy was in his. Overall, he had a pretty impressive career, though, before succumbing to depression and self-pity. |
| Jim Widner | 3/30/2002 1 replies |
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Though I would be one of the first to deplore the antics of many so-called journalists in their dramatic approaches to news reporting (one has to be reminded of the character William Hurt played in the film Broadcast News when he faked a tear over a tragic story on which he was reporting), I do not think I would call Edward Murrow melodramatic. Certainly at times he was forced, but the substance behind the report, in my opinion, forgave any dramatics he employed to make the point.
News reporting, despite its desire to be pure, is rarely so. Certainly, there is the "straight story" but for me Murrow was first a "commentator" or news analyst, not just reporting on the news, but attempting to sway. Indeed this might be a cardinal sin in some news reporting books, but he was at the same time certainly eloquent about which he spoke. As I said before, I think this is his legacy. Despite Fulton Lewis Jr.'s tenacity in raising the standard for journalists at home, the man let his politics get much too much in the way of his commentary. He was, unfortunately for him, a duck out water. His strong conservative stances just came too much at the wrong times. He fought against any involvement by this country in taking on the menace that was Hitler. He supported isolationism when the country was gradually realizing it needed to be involved. Yet in later years he chided those who were against our involvement in Vietnam - for me a total reversal of what he supposedly stood for. Granted the times were different, but he always seemed two steps behind. Even with Lewis' tenacious work to improve the standing of radio journalists, Murrow at the same time was accomplishing this through his "dramatic" reporting from London. Again, I grant that his "voice" allowed him to sound much more authoritarian. Listeners probably took what Murrow said with more authority than what what Raymond Swing broadcast (with his lighter - though for me, soothing, voice), despite the fact that both held similar beliefs in what was happening to the world at the time. I think that Murrow would have succeeded without the CBS PR machine. One tends to find his writings in books about reporting much more often than many of the other commentator/analysts of the time. But a good read of the Library of America's two volume editions on World War II reporting which cuts across a wide spectrum of how the war was presented to Americans, shows many similar articles equally "dramatic." Would one not consider Ernie Pyle dramatic? What about A.J. Liebling? The times required a certain amount of drama. As much as I admire the "first on the spot" reports of Ubiquitous Max Jordan, one rarely (and somewhat unfortunately for he was a true humanitarian) remembers him. His reports were more of the fact-based dry reports that told us exactly what was happening. But because the times were extraordinary, the dramatic broadcasts of many of the best of the CBS reporters is more often remembered. Yes, partly due to the PR machine, but I think these reporters can stand on their own for their inciteful, intelligent commentary. Perhaps Murrow let his fame get to him. Except for a few bright moments from television, much of his television career is uneventful. As was stated, the See It Now series was generally light fluff. I think first becoming an executive, then later a televison personality was his downfall. I would certainly not disagree about the vanity of his television career. But his radio reputation was deserving. |
| JB | 3/30/2002 0 replies |
| I really don't feel qualified to discuss Murrow in depth, as I haven't seen or heard enough of his work. From what I've seen of him he did appear to take himself awfully seriously, though I don't sense egotism behind this so much as a kind of grim and relentless pursuit of an issue. In this respect he was like Dan Rather, but more eloquent and sincere. This seems to be a pattern for journalists on television. I sense that in his radio work Murrow walked a fine line between show biz and traditional news. A lot of the pre-Murrow radio news, it seems, was dry and undramatic, more or less newswire stuff, or else it was hyped up and Hollywoodish, with commentators known for their taglines (cheerio!). Murrow was certainly not dry, but he wasn't Walter Winchell, either. He wasn't slick. In this sense he helped pave the way for a kind of middle ground that television news occupies to this day. Whether he invented this middle ground singlehandedly is another matter. Probably not, but he was the first practitioner of this new news style to become a big name. |
| Eric Cooper | 4/1/2002 0 replies |
| Well, I guess I have to jump in hee, since I am a huge fan of ERM. I would say that Murrow was the FIRST but not the ONLY TV journalist to tackle serious news on TV. Being first counts for a lot. On radio, "Saint Edward" will always be remembered for his poetic coverage of the London Blitz. |